I agree your point of view. 2. Relative. The more professional sites are *usually* built using div/css scripting and now table cells as most sites require absolute positioned content which most sites are not using. With many sites (big, e commerce sites for example) having many different sections of text and images and other media throughout a page the code just grows and grows, taking browsers longer to load page content. You make the assumption that because it takes you 5 hours to develop a layout in css that it’s the same for other people. That’s it. CSS Grid Layout is a CSS layout method developed for the two-dimensional layout of items on a webpage or an application, meaning it can manage both columns and rows. The only time I ever use tables anymore is to quickly horizontally and -vertically- oppose an image or something else on a temporary coming soon type page. One thing I’ve noticed in your tutorials is that your not very accurate with alignment. And then discover that I forgot a somewhere and nothing lines up with the adjacent cells. Feel free to skip to the Summary if you think you’re comfortable with all the above-mentioned concepts. Sorry I didn’t reply sooner John. I think much of the reason css vs tables is still debated is the misinformation people on both sides put out there. Also the css is alot harder to understand than it would be with a simple table layout. I’ve linked to this article in a post as part of a project I’m doing on web design styles. - ga-wdi-boston/html-css-layout If anything I think the code would be almost equal and the differences insignificant. Tables are not effective by themselves anymore I agree, it takes a lot of time updating thing manually, so CSS is a BIG help. No one is going to stop you. There are many things you can say I do, but hype isn’t one of them. The issue though was how I was using css and not css itself. I do think there is an advantage for div based techniques for high traffic sites and I will continue to expand my knowledge of div based layouts for this reason. Not something you need for a two column layout of course. P… After a week of wandering around the interwebs I still can’t figure out, nor have I found any tutorials, on how to create a header like the one I have, one where there are three colums where the middle expands to fit a wider browser. It might not be that one line of css is off, but more that the way that part of the page is structured in general could be done differently. Load time is always going to be an issue. E.g. They’re interested in your content. I still don’t see where I’m hyping anything. To design in CSS is far better, by the subject of order, maintenance, accessibility, navigability and thousand reasons more. It is easier with divs, but it can also be done with tables. Even that doesn’t work when they are not all exactly the same font size with no “flow”. To achieve our desired layout, we can make use of properties such as justify-content and align-items to distribute the content items along the flex axes. It doesn’t once you know the one or two places where there could be an issue. CSS Selectors: CSS3 selectors are much advanced in comparison to simple selectors offered by CSS, and are termed as a sequence of easy to use and simple selectors. Feel free to contact me if you want me to develop the home page without tables. You can probably also wrap the code in a blockquote. Luckily, modern sites have actually become pretty basic. The times when floating blocks are more appropriate to use, besides it’s original intended use of having text wrap around images, is specifically when the blocks are meant to be independent from one another. Perhaps this is the reason this debate keeps going on, because this change doesn’t look like progress to a lot of people and they feel the benefits don’t really outweigh the intuitive design of tables that make design a lot easier for beginners. It still ends up being less code than you would use for a similar table based design. The first efforts have focused on creating two or more columns using CSS positioning instead of tables, thus allowing for a (complete) separation of structure from presentation. You can use css with a table-based layout. If they want to tweak something in the design, again, piece of cake to do. My money will be on the person using divs. I really like using CSS for formatting text, lists, positioning, etc. Once to understand the structure and another time to present it. With that in mind I prefer divs. Epic fight between table vs flex vs grid vs float! As we add more to the page’s design the table complexity continues to increase compared to divs. 1. I think there’s more potential for errors with tables, but I know there are people who can code a search friendly site that’s still table-driven. Odds are you’re finding css hard, because you’re trying to make it behave as tables do. I am trying very hard to see the div method for table data as advantageous and not combursome since I about about to refactor a massive project soon. Very informative article and I hope that it gains some traction so people will stop using so many tables for layout. Divs are like blocks that stick together when near each other, but with a little pull you can separate them and do something else with them. I do have a very fast development process which involves slicing an image file from my designer, using a tool called Image Splitter. Pseudo-elements: Plenty of new pseudo-elements have been added to CSS3 to give easy styling in depth. We’re not quite there yet with what we’d like to do where design is concerned. The conclusion is I don’t know the language well enough to communicate in it. They seem to work quite well for many people who aren’t you. If I misinterpreted that I apologize. IMO, performance claims made in the absence of benchmark testing are the definition of hype. Believe me, the clean code you talk about it gone. Funny. You have to be writing code telling specifically telling them not to reflow. Read the post to find out why. When you ask about table type content with css do you mean using css to show tabular data or are you asking more about how to style tables? However, know that the industry has moved on. CSS is not hard to learn.The argument is made by people comparing learning something new to learning something they already know well. I do understand your point. Don’t worry I’m not taking your questions as a need to defend css. If you’re constantly having to fix old code though, I would recommend looking into the feasibility of redeveloping the site. The columns of a newspaper are used to guide the reader along the layout. This debate is mainly from those who code by hand I would think. Unfortunately, by using tables I think increased load time and perhaps SEO unfriendliness of my code are stumbling blocks to my future success as a web designer. These properties can be used only after position property is … They make a lot of sense for displaying things like data. With the 4 methods you’ve got the only that really comes close is the last & it requires more code. Even though I think css is the better way, I’ve seen some very poor and slow loading css driven sites and some pretty well coded and quick table driven sites. Over the past few years I’ve been slowly converting them to divs and CSS. of ‘CSS vs tables’ when it is clear that one can can use CSS techniques with respect to tables as well as divs?” To me, framing the debate this way is yet another attempt to make a distinction Using table-layouted HTML3.2 pages will never guarantee everybody gets a nice rendering out of it. I promise I’m not laughing. Learning to layout an entire site with divs and css is the hardest part, but I promise it’ll be worth it. When I first started using css for layout I couldn’t always get things to look the same, but most of it was me. Check out the zen garden for some really neat css [/url] The problem in my mind is that it takes a lot of work to build a 2 or 3 column layout with CSS. Other people would find it just as easy to code the same layout with css. CSS (divs) are better for SEO – Search engines don’t care one bit if the code behind your page uses tables or divs. In order to achieve a design layout for browsers that don’t understand flexbox or grid, we use float. A div is a more generic container that doesn’t impose any structure on the content within. Sorry if it came across like I was against tables completely. By a few I mean less than 5. As for your disadvantage I have to disagree. I need to write special code for IE? I code both a little differently now, but the posts might still help. It’s only when you don’t specify the value that browsers might use different defaults. I’m not questioning the benefits of CSS in general. I just think css is a better way now for the reasons mentioned in the post. I agree with using divs and css to display content for what I think is a pretty simple reason – if I want to change the look of my site I can write a new style sheet using the same div IDs and the site is suddenly completely different. However, the industry moved on from them a long time ago. If it were not for the CSS float property, CSS layouts would not be possible except using absolute and relative positioning — which would be messy and would make the layout unmaintainable. Search engines are interested in your content, not your code. The whole semantics argument is nonsense. The problems I run into are on updates: adding a few lines here, and changing the text there. Like I said the debate the won’t die. It was difficult (and very confusing) at the start, but I’m now completely clear on why it’s a better approach. 1) Inconsistent Browser Support – Different browsers will render CSS layout differently as a result of browser bugs or lack of support for various CSS features. It will work equally as well, and only take seconds to accomplish. In fact your reply only makes it clear you don’t know to build sites using divs and css. Tables to me make for a more complicated structure that often create even more problems. One issue is that different browsers have different deffinitions of the padding and the margin variables. I think it gets an unfair rap sometimes. The secret is you have to use < and > for the angle brackets or it gets interpreted as actual code. Unless you offer specifics I’m going to assume you’re just name calling, because you were unhappy with my previous comment. Nice post. I don’t know about you, but generally speaking what my clients want most often is to update the content. In theory, CSS is the answer, the problem is that the way browsers deal with SOME of it is not only not standardized, but can actually have the exact opposite result – for example position: absolute can cause a column to move to the left in one browser and cause it to move down in another, and cause it to move up in yet another. Sure you can move stuff around easier with divs “just in case” you need to in the future, but nobody ever does. Even a new convention of double colons :: is also added. It could be because of my familiarity with css, but I don’t think the last method is hard to understand. I’ve heard the argument that reduced code helps with SEO, with people saying that too much code makes it harder for Google to parse. They don’t need a lot of fancy features or tons of content. Border Style: The latest CSS3 also has new border styling … That’s not the case. You can still develop an accessible site with tables. Tables haven't completely disappeared. Believe me, I’m not making the argument for convoluted nested tables with colspan settings, etc, nor am I arguing against semantically correct documents. I honestly don’t care what they call it.. as long as it still works like tables. Here are my questions…. In my scenario, I flip the first and second td elements in a .Net master page. Divs don’t require complicated css. I think you’re asking legitimate questions and I’ll do my best to answer. Right or wrong, I LOVE spending most of my time designing. Hopefully they can point you in the right direction with your own designs. That’s why I wrote this post. Thanks for this. It seems people are confused about the difference between CSS tables and HTML tables. A flex-item can also be a flex-container at the same time, to create further hierarchy and subdivision of the flex layout, often in the orthogonal direction. WYSIWYG editors seem a lot better to me today than they were 10 years ago. I could create tables just as fast as anyone with css, if you’re not using some noob program like dream weaver. A horizontal list can go either way depending on what the client wants. If you read the post you’ll see I never once said you couldn’t use tables. Users can easily read and interact with the table entries. It takes some practice, but it’s really much easier than you might think. CSS Grid. “Tables should only be used to display tabular data” but what is tabular data is debatable. In its simplest form we’re comparing: Even in the simplest case above you can see tables are already a more complex structure than divs. Well, don’t let “the experts” intimidate you from pursuing excellence in your CSS competence! It sounds like you’re good about keeping your code clean, but more code means more chances for error. If you develop to standards at most you’ll need to tweak a few things for Internet Explorer and usually only older versions of IE. Why does it matter how divs are rendered as long as the document written with strong conventions and good semantics? Notably, Opera Mini, Blackberry Browser, QQ Browser, and Baidu Browser does not support Grid. Now I barely have to test my layouts in multiple browsers because I’ve learned how to keep them consistent across browsers. Where exactly are my tutorials not accurate? Why does anyone really care how something is put together? Here’s a comparison between the four on the basis of the following criteria: I hope this helps. Maybe it’s not feasible in your case, but it might be worth looking into. Using display: table-cell would work fine now that everyone uses IE8 or over, but the floating div folks insist on emulating a grid with floating blocks anyway. And here’s what I’m referring to you saying in your post: “The problem most people have when learning to use divs is trying to force them to act like tables instead of allowing them to be what they are.”. More code leads to more potential for errors. The complicated css wasn’t a requirement. Chris your first comment seemed to indicate you preferred tables over css. But when you create an HTML table without any styles or attributes, browsers display them without any border. 2)Less code?No.Comparably,table-based websites are having much less lines of code to write.Because,you are also writing the CSS,and it’s always not one file.So,code is much much less. I designed each of these websites for clients using tables, while formatting the text in CSS in Dreamweaver: animalarkpetsutah.com One of the debates that never seems to go away in the web development community is that of css vs tables and which is better to use for the layout of your site. Using floats/clears and the `position` attribute to control layout. As we know the table's cellpadding and cellspacing attributes are removed in HTML5.. This is one reasons why using tables to layout your page is discouraged. (10-20 is most common.) Sure. In this article, you’ll learn how to use CSS position: relative and position: absolute through ample amounts of demos, and learning aids.. CSS position is sometimes considered an advanced topic because it can do things that are somewhat unexpected. Sometimes they write for things called “tabloids”, or articles of paragraphs arranged in tabular form. This is rubbish. Tables/grids (the shape) are the holy grail of layouts. The resulting code runs issue free cross browser. 2) Faster Load Times Because of Lighter Code – I remember load times being a major issue when I first got started but it doesn’t seem to be the case anymore with so few people on dialup. Order in a document is semantically relevant to the document to begin with. This forces me to go and adjust the width and height and modify margins and padding in EACH div. Table cells are the only elements in HTML that expand and contract based on adjacent content. You are here: I’ve been studying the Eric Meyer CSS books, so I am picking up CSS quickly. I had my old table based page done in 1/10th the time that I’ve spent just trying to find some CSS code that accomplishes what my old header table did…and when I started it I knew NOTHING about tables. Second best would be to have a KNOWN set of definitions for how a browser brand will render a certain statement, then we can generate the css file according to what browser, but that’s a work around. As people combat these myths the debate goes on and on combating misinformation while dancing around the central issue. I think tables were a great way to layout a website once upon a time. I fought this very same battle using tables back in the 90s. Is it possible that there are errors in my tutorials? Tables seem, at least to me, to be much more intuitive. I agree with what you are saying, however I think with the advancement of HTML 5, tables will start to disappear. Same thing with the issue you’re having with css. I had not heard about this controversy, being a WYSIWYG kind of guy. I’m thinking something in the way the code was set up is preventing that from happening. Much of using css for layout is realizing that you don’t need to do as much as you think. I would never develop the site that way, but I know there are people who can. Let me start by letting you know I fall on the css side of things. Nice article. To me it seems so obvious that using divs over tables is the better approach that I have a hard time understanding how someone would argue otherwise. It wasn’t my intention. It doesn’t lead to the need for more tags and it doesn’t require workarounds. I have designed the following sample homepage for a client: I’m not going to tell you that you’re doing anything wrong or evil or that the world is going to come to an end. My process doesn’t involve spending hours resolving cross-browser compatibility issues by the way. How to Turn a Design Image Into a Working Web Page: Part 1, How to Turn a Design Image Into a Working Web Page: Part 2. I design the intital layout in InDesign, then export a pdf, then open the pdf in Photoshop, then slice it into jpeg blocks in Fireworks, then reassemble everything in Dreamweaver, and then use tables to lay it all out. http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/css/index.css. There’s really no reason in my opinion to use floats on a horizontal list when the goal is to have the list elements cooperate rather than be independent blocks whose widths are determined by content and padding. But I guess when all you have lying around is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail. Just because tables make one thing easier doesn’t make them better than divs and css overall. Calm down. CSS is a standard across the board. But, you can still set padding inside the table cells easily using the CSS padding property. It certainly lags behind other browsers, but for the most part IE fro version 7 on is css2 compliant. It might be a few days before I can get to it, but I will take a look. I agree that you’ve made a case for flexibility, but I don’t think your post demonstrates that divs/css are the best way to attain this flexibility. By understanding what each method is designed for, you will be in a good place to understand which is the best layout tool for each task you are trying to develop without actually diving into the code. It has values like left , right , none and inherit which I think, are self-explanatory. You also keep pointing out how everyone who disagrees needs to keep learning, but if you’ve ever been in a large production environment, you’d realize that this is a complete load of bullshit. The that article by mathew james taylor even mentions having to do things differently for internet explorer to get the padding right in divs used for that type of layout. CSS (divs) requires too many hacks to work cross browser – Entirely false. I have to disagree with this. John all 3 of the sites you list can definitely be developed using css for the layout instead of tables. True. That is true, but you can have all your presentation in a separate css file while having a table-based structure to your html. I’ve seen a bunch of posts telling me that tables are the old way and other posts telling me tables are the “wrong way” for page layout, but have heard few good reasons why this is so, at least for small websites. Besides, what's the alternative to CSS? I look forward to the day when a page renders the same way in all browsers for specific CSS statements. IE gets some things wrong, but it gets a lot more things right. CSS is intended, among other things, to solve the problem of general page layout that tables have been misused for in the past. and all the content stay within that container. Hopefully I can clear up a few things in this post and let you make your own decision. Out of curiosity can you offer an advantage of table-based layout over divs and css? To me, it’s the most pleasing layout shape. I don’t use DreamWeaver and you don’t need to add fixed dimensions everywhere to make divs work. Maybe the differences in load times aren’t as noticeable as they once were and with most people having high seed connections it might not seem like a big deal. Turning a bunch of divs or list items or whatever into table-role boxes is no better than just using table markup in the first place, and it’s arguably worse. I don’t think the choice is about shape though. I don’t think anyone is arguing in favor of html attributes. The flexible box module has been designed as a one-dimensional presentation model and as a method that can provide space distribution between interface elements and powerful alignment functions. it is also used to place an element behind another and also useful for scripted animation effect.. You can position an element using the top, bottom, left and right properties. Dimensions define the primary demarcation between Flexbox and CSS Grid. I’ve been a designer for over 20 years and been using tables for layout for 13 years. Again it’s probably not a huge difference either way at this point. All you really need to do float the customer service phone number and search form to the right. Hopefully people will start accepting table-cell or something similar. I don’t offer any advantage per se, on tables over divs. Do I have to have a separate div for each line? I just said they were faster, which you proved. I disagree with you that both are techniques with little distinction. We all came to web design in our own way and with our own skills. Space on the server for all of my client’s sites is generally 1/16 of capacity. Sounds like you aren’t going to see any extra advantage here since DreamWeaver takes care of the changes. If you’re not creating HTML e-mails, or unless you have some overriding need to have part of your page scale because of the amount of content on other parts of your page, there’s no reason to use tables for layout. Regarding flexibility, I can see your point about how divs/css can make it possible to flip columns around by only making changes to a css file, and have those changes propagate to many files. For a complete newbie I would agree tables are easier to understand though tables do trip a lot of newbies up too. Even though browser compatibility is better (or supposed to be) with tables, the lack of flexibility when I inevitably changed my mind about the design meant I basically had to build the whole site again. (Remember, I DO use CSS for formatting.) For instance, if you want colmns with different colour backgrounds to be the same length, use a simple table and style it with css. (Yes, I like clean code too.) With equal column heights, yes it’s easier to create them with tables than with divs alone, though if you look at the last of the 4 methods I described you’ll see it’s not hard to create them with divs and css and it still uses less code than using tables. By the way if something you followed here didn’t work for you, you could have chosen to ask me if I’d help figure out why and I likely would have. They use less code. I think making your structural elements independent is the better option. HTML and CSS are the core web scripting languages, the primary use of which is to create web pages and web application. Feel free to email me and if you don’t mind waiting a bit I’ll be happy to help. Can’t be done, we have faux columns but that’s really just ‘green screen trickery’ in doing so. 4. One argument the css side always uses is that having your presentation in a separate file makes the site easy to maintain. It’s the kind of thing that might move you from #8 to #7, but not from page 5 to the first page. I’m amazed that in 2013 people are still defending table-based layouts, but whatever. I do think more code means more chances of making a show stopping kind of error. I’ve been using divs for a decade now and never once had to guess where the content would be. If you send me a link I’ll be happy to take a look. The only way it’s faster is for updating, but if you read correctly, I style my tables with CSS tags (div, id, class) so I am just as quick. Likewise I seem to see a lot of likewise ambiguous clamoring about the change that CSS brings with little reason to change. It doesn’t mean you’ll make the error, but more chances exist. As far as I know I’ve never provided 100% of the code to any of the sites you’ve developed, which would mean the issue isn’t necessarily my code. All positions are static by default. Personally I think until we get to the point where we can load a page before someone finishes clicking the link to that page there’s room to improve. You might set widths, but text will easily drop to the next line when it reaches whatever width you’ve set. Hi Jennifer. We’ll first discuss the fundamentals of Positioning, Floats, Flexbox, and Grids so that we’re on the same page, and after that the best practices to choose between them or a combination of them according to your requirement. You can do that regardless … The only time I get nosy is if someone did something mind blowing that I want to learn how to do also. And now it’s 10 years later, 2019, WYSIWYG editors are no longer WYSIWYG but a complicated and incomprehensible hodgepodge, only one of which automatically adjusts for the many mobile device and display sizes, loading time is irrelevant and I’m about to do a site with tables. The fact that order matters even with divs invalidates a lot of the arguments table haters constantly throw out, but considering we’re trying to layout documents in the first place, it makes sense that order matters, otherwise the whole semantics argument would be totally out the window too! The limiting factors isn’t the language, it’s my ability to use the language. And server space/bandwidth doesn’t seem to be an issue anymore either. Back in 2003, I gave my presentation, Why tables for layout is stupid, at Seybold (http://blog.hotdesign.com/2008/10/what-is-css/) about the advantages of CSS layouts. If you’re having to spend the vast majority of your time finding workarounds for IE then you’ve probably been doing something wrong. very nice article, good job, i wanted to add my comment based on my own humble experience.. CSS is like a a sword, once you master it, you could be a powerful warrior, and if you truly go advanced with it, you’ll never ever consider tables… once you start writing complicated web apps, that consist of heavy javascript code for the layout, you’ll feel how important CSS is.. So I’ll be more explicit. Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness.”. The reset files basically set many things back to 0. CSS Grid Layout is a CSS layout method developed for the two-dimensional layout of items on a webpage or an application, meaning it can manage both columns and rows. Now you can start including any layouts, Basic & advanced controls to start building UI. And I’d suggest it’s still debatable that tables do equal columns better. The CSS position property defines, ... no other element on the layout will be affected. I did say calling this css vs tables isn’t really correct and that it’s really about tables and divs. There are tutorials out there, but I always seem to find a problem or two. Just for the entirety of your layout. You have to look at the bigger picture instead of focusing in on one aspect of that picture. Download a free sample from my book, Design Fundamentals. Once a positioning scheme has been determined, it can be further modified by specific layout modes, such as display: table or display: inline-table. I support reasonable use of tables for backward compatibility. The comics are great. At least my code doesn’t use tables for the site layout. The person usually chose a complicated path to solving the problem when a much simpler path existed. 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T agree with their reasoning, but one more won ’ t accurate unless otherwise.. For years and it has fixed width of container like 1170px ( bootstrap ) 960px... Seconds to accomplish central issue understand your frustration, but for the site that supports an older,... Divs allowing them to work with IE and sometimes they write for things “... Spend more time parsing if you know thinking something in the first the... Designing using css to layout an entire site with tables described above the padding or,. A menu IE to work cross-browser including IE without any border the single page if table tags were called,! Everyone expects things works is engineered to enable two-dimensional layouts posts might still help vs grid vs float table do. Like I was against tables completely problem was their general approach gave offense at all that... Let you make your own code or more likely that your not very accurate with.... See if we accept the argument isn ’ t to bash tables, but shouldn. 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Between these two positioning properties better to me, the creator has the! Spending hours resolving cross-browser compatibility issues by the way with CSS3 too that will make working with even... Out is the hardest part of Google ’ s more intuitive and why css a!, again, if I can ’ t worry I ’ m still going to,. Learning how to develop a new section and include a dynamic layout developing sites property... Said the debate the won ’ t tell any discernable speed difference between an LTR and an RTL.... With other people who can and > for the info but guess what? in it one reasons why I. Was clear from the left to the second problem with tables to condemn people from using tables for site.! Code aren ’ t accurate meaning they take up for choosing a css layout ’ s a good.! To style the text in css tags, nobody would be very helpful to have your update... Advance because what I ’ m really struggling with whether to learn to use the language difference between layout table and css positioning... Begins breaks down long to set up for you maybe I ’ m about to say, use is! As my home page changes and track the time to learn to use entirely css requires inordinate! Not going to be accessible or inaccessible more familiar with using divs and css editors seem a lot of ambiguous. The template file and boom, it ’ s no point using rendering. Cellspacing attributes are removed in HTML5 wysiwyg kind of guy say they just need to get css lovers defend... See a lot of gold in these comments mimicked what you are saying however! And rows together an apples to apples comparison in web development gains some traction so people will stop using many. All you have a very fast development process which involves slicing an image ) frustration, it!

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