This is why I tend to fall back to the WCF. people who call themselves Calvinist have never really read Calvin. Pg 81 I looked into becoming a Calvinist years ago but did not see it in the Scripture, and I tried hard to do so. Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). Craig Keener 25. And this is the crux of the problem. They probably have read other books about Calvin doctrines, but never the original. So help me now - these labels are mind boggling - if I see on a list somewhere that so and so is a Calvinist, or an Arminian, or Pelagist (and I know I messed that word up and every time I saw it I went back to my marine biology days and thought about deep ocean life as the words are similar so I would picture the man from Atlantis and get very sidetracked in whatever idea was being posted . I have come to understand that my experience in some great non-Calvinist churches is not the norm. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life.. The fundamental non-negotiables of our faith, those that if not agreed upon prevent us from calling each other brothers or sisters are found in 4 ancient creeds. Apparently Imade some remark that all infants who die go to heaven. I know this sounds like a broad brush, but I think people need to know this dirty little secret. I think this is true. Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Feb 9, 2018. I guess what Im trying to say is: No one forces any of us to comment; but once we do we are obligated to defend our ideas. I too have read Olson s book as well and appreciate his gentle spirit. Wehad the opportunityto spend the weekend with Wade and his family. To help clarify this, theologians for centuries have distinguished between primary and secondary causality. The Calvinism Free-For-All (nearly 1,100 comments this morning) post definitely triggered me. When people reject Calvinism because they think it makes us mindless automatons, that bothers me because that isnt what it is about. That is why I do not now, nor will I ever, follow a man. Lin wrote: God can do that. I DO know of Calvinists who stay away from these blogs excuse they feel they are unwelcome, even though they very much wish to fight against abuse. Carson D. James Kennedy J.I. Holds you and strokes the back of your head. But I can say, knowing what I now know about God, that God would never ever ever have set the evil I suffered in place intentionally. Thats what I think the intention of this blog post was. Look at my Perfect System! Ive seen the attitude too often in fandom, and for some reason political or theological fanboys are a lot more respectable than furry or otaku or gamer fanboys, though the underlying dynamic is similar. C.K. Ive tried to suss out how God can create everything that exists and still give us free will, and I dont get that either; but because God is bigger and more powerful than me, I believe that he did. It caused her great pain to contemplate the Calvinist belief that God had ordained for her to be abused in such a manner. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. Mhler taught at Tbingen and Munich. Would you want to answer that one? Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. It simply makes it harder for people who are trying to recover from abuse, and continue to believe that God is good and loves them, to want to engage in a search for Truth. He or she who has the bigger gun or knife or bombhe or she who has the juggernaut of platform or Church Leadership seniorityis the one who gets to compel others to their point of view. When I look at myself, I think of my own salvation from a TULIP perspective. If the person makes the comment because he/she believes its important that others should know that there are people who can be hurt by that conversation in real life, how should that affect the online discussion? But never, ever did it raise anything except a good discussion. These would include pedophilia, domestic violence, poverty, natural disasters, racial strife, etc. Also, I use calvinist interchangeably with TULIP believer. Off my nursing soapbox . But hes not saying that God is actively driving every aspect of that molecules behavior. I think people are blaming a theology when the real evil is in the hearts of men. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. As Ive said on older threads, back when I was considering becoming a Calvinist and began lurking at their forums and perusing their sites, and I began e mailing them asking them if they could explain Calvinism for me and clear up some confusion I had, this happened a lot. That said, I am in the Non-Calvinist-non-Arminian camp (currently in a Mennonite church, but not an ethnic Mennonite), so I label myself Anabaptist to describe my neither-or in terms of Arminian/Calvinist. This is not the Calvinist thought process. So far, we both agree. Weeps with you. How to Resign from a Church But I think you have said that you have never read The Institutes. But something has changed in the last number of years. Ultimately, they could be reading an interpretation of an interpretation, adding their own along the way. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. That is biblical. Cheers you on. I will say that as a fairly new Lutheran, I have REALLY been blessed by the attitude that as a woman, I am relating directly to Christ and am responsible for my own theology. I know there are some whose solution is that God limits Himself so that He is not all-knowing; I dont see this in Scripture. As I was saying in my post above, not only is it difficult communicating with Cals because they usually insist you just dont understand Cal!, but they cant agree with each other. @ JeffB: I even like some mean Calvinists. Have prayed for him, his family and physicians. I find it troubling too. When I struggle with this, my answer is always to look at the Cross- it seems all theists must deal with a God who allows evil. Every puzzle piece in its perfect place, no room for any doubt Is some parts of the word more important than other parts? When there is someone who has been really, REALLY busted up by a Calvinist, I completely get where the anger comes from. I think that is why it is good that Dee/Deb use the term Cavinista. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? A person who is happy (if that word lacks depth for anyone, you could substitute hopeful, optimistic, joyful, grateful) can affect others with it, 3 generations worth (ie- someone with happiness holds a door for someone carrying a heavy load, that person is then affected positively and they in turn affect someone else with their bolstered happiness). Actually, I admire you for letting it go on, but it would certainly be understandable if you had called a halt to it. And since they realize that their belief is based on purely subjective interpretations of scripture that require severe qualificationwell, much easier to get you to just concede their premises by couching them in theologically nebulous, but emotionally attractive (and manipulative), platitudes. As for the double predestination, I wouldnt agree with either position youve posted but that is no surprise, as Im a non Calvinist. Both my husband and I knew the difference at this point and began to look for another church in Dallas which we found in Bent Tree Bible Church. Theology needs to take the back seat when it comes to comforting the abused. Yet not one of them will read Is God to Blame by Greg Boyd, let alone sit and discuss the verses in question (Exploring what Gods sovereignity really means, based on scripture). Membership Covenants For example, I will admit that I do not see how a good, all powerful God can exist while evil also exists. Never, once, have I ever entertained such a suggestions about my Calvinist brothers and sisters. Some Calvinists who want to make a distinction between hyper calvinism and proper Calvinism will gravitate to these equivocations in an effort to convince youand I suspect themselvesthat God in their construct is not some despotic puppet master who controls all things including abuse, rape, etc (e.g. They alone have truth in ALL things, by Gods special revelation. Infused? My point was this idea that God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. The WCF clearly states that God is not the author of sin. The farther away from direct, clear scripture I get, the more loosely I hold to ideas. Somehow He organizes His Will and human free will in accomplishing His ends. We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. Ann. A stupendously important point, Jeff. Because he did not adhere to the beliefs of his well-known pastor. @ JeffB: We pulled no punches, but I believe we came away with a greater respect for each other and, dare I say, love. /r/Christianity is a subreddit to discuss Christianity and aspects of Christian life. I find that to be an amazing God thing. One of the problems in these conversatiosn is that some Calvinists will say, Cal does not teach X!, and maybe it does not(? I would be some place where I could state my beliefs openly. 3680 / C (Canadian Dollars) Wilfred Laurier University (Waterloo Lutheran Seminary) Lutheran. I mentioned the concept as one that was coming from a non-Calvinist contingent (but is also the view of Sproul). I don't get him and he doesn't get me but we can still try to love and respect one another. There is something that has been horribly misinterpreted in the verse about All things work together for good..etc It has almost created a cult of catastrophe. I'd also add Thomas Cranmer to that group (leader of the English Reformation, author of the Book of Common Prayer, and most of the 39 Articles) 7. I always get a smile on my face when I get an email whichcallsme out on my pitiful understanding of the faith. By accurate, I mean that its the definition of the term when it came into being. There are some who would consider me non charitable. Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. (Putting it mildly!!!). Hence the terrible attitude of many evangelicals towards science. That should be enough to cause himto squirm. She discussed the abuse that she has been subjected to in her life. Agree that you cant really know, truth, and as such you can have NO basis for denying their doctrine. Something like that. For what its worth, Darcyjo, you have my respect as is deserved by a soldier in the front line of what Patricia King calls the Love War. Does that make me not a Calvinist? @ Junkster: Please, please, please, keep us posted on your son in law. I guess Im not explaining myself very well here, because all this is not to say I think theology is a bad thing. This is fine too, and actually more pleasant for everyone. If you define Calvinism that way, then I am certainly not a Calvinist, but neither is my church, the PCA, nor even was Calvin himself. But the rest of the bad stuff? We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! 8. BTW-Wade Burleson told his church my conversion story which generated a few laughs. Ive not tried to convince anyone to be a Calvinist. For this reason, it is often called "God-centered" theology. But these things do not happen independently of God. If a man chooses to rape a woman, does God have the power to stop him? It is how Calvinism discusses those underlying ideas that causes existential damage and thus, pain. Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp. Jimmy Draper. It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. Because the complementarian doctrine is Gods will. Much of what I am reading here involves debating or defining what Calvin wrote, etc. Theology - Roger Olson, Jack Cottrell (restorationist inerrantist), Thomas Oden, Ergun Caner, Paige Patterson, Michael Brown Also, anything written by Satan Notthemama1984 Puritan Board Post-Graduate Nov 12, 2010 #7 I personally have no respect for Geisler. This soteriological view is named after him because he is best remembered for his plethora of writings on this theological subject. He wept at sin and cruelty and brutality.He died for sin, he doesnt stage it.Why would He plan the same terrible things that He died for? One forum in particular, no matter what web site or book title I threw out that pointed out flaws in Calvinism (TULIP/ Reformed same thing to me), the Calvinists would scoff and say each author I brought up could be dismissed because he doesnt understand Calvinism or presents a strawman of Calvinism. even when said authors quoted directly from the books of famous Calvinists. 1911. Or maybe a better example would be if someone said The practice of withholding baptism from infants is evil, Im sure people would rush to defend their position. I know you know how to do that because Ive seen you do it at ACFJ. When people are discussing a theological point over which they have never been hurt, they will present more matter-of-factly. I admit, I tend to just let people rant any way they want to and hold them (so to speak) when they are done. A hearty AMEN numo. My Comment was Deleted This can apply to spiritual things, to living life with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. This is why I dont like to appeal to the belief systems of RCC, reformers, or Charlemagne. And speaking for myself, I take that conflict ( as an adult, as a student of scripture, having read many books on Calvinism) very seriously. The bullying was behind the scenes. Sydney Anglicans are Calvinist, Moore College is strongly Calvinist, as of course are the Presbyterians and some Baptists. 5) Likewise, everything we do for others should NOT be because we love them, but to bring glory to God. Hunt, Finney, Hyles, and Billy Graham would number in the non (anti)-calvinists that I personally have less respect for. John Hagee. For example, the word total in Total Depravity is an absolutethere is no such rational idea as partly total, which is what some Calvinists want to say when they declare that humans are not as bad as they could beas if this matters in the dualistic Calvinist paradigm: God is Good, and youare not. I had found the light. And even if God has blessed them, more often that not, Gods blessing is a resource, not a reward. I have a couple key thoughts (key to me anyway) which have taken form as I have extricated myself from reformed theology over the past year: 1. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. For my part, I honestly dont understand a need to defend Calvinism, or Luther, or the RCC, or Baptists, etc., etc. In other words, the Calvinists want you to agree that YOU have a FINITE mind and could be wrong. It was you! But are *we* the measure of truth? You are free to jump back in and even things out, Jeff . I would really like to understand this assertion you made. Yet why do I still love Jesus, the Bible and read so many Christian authors? If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. Based on my experience, the experience of Oasis both of us who have had very difficult childhood abuse experiences and other stories Ive been reading, especially of teens abandoning their faith, having emotional breakdowns and even suicide, why do we need to focus on Calvins system? Then I checked the remaining word-count: well over 600,000. After all, you could be wrong. Should the conversation be halted? 2. How many blogs do you know that feature writers or pastorswho have significant differences in soteriology from the blog owners? If I remain silent, then Piper gets to define what it means to be Reformed, even though he denies a lot of Reformed theology and veers into hyper-Calvinism at times. German-American theologian and philosopher Paul Tillich is remembered for his work in the field of Christian existentialism and for concepts such as the method of correlation. The first document is in the form of a memo and is entitled, "Reformed Red Flags.". 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. I think the scripture uses the language of both perspectives, so it is not a view without merit. 1 Cor. Tell himyou love himanyway. Founders made the list, as did John Piper, Jonathan Edwards, RC Sproul, James White and the first Southern Baptist confession of faith (which is still used at Southern and Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminaries, and which even the famous non-Calvinist Paige Patterson has signed), the Abstract of Principles. So this is a goal for myself, as my family is growing up and I am finding a bit more time. What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. I think I would rather not go the route of trying to figure things out in that way; it leads to some very painful things. [deleted] 6 yr. ago. Everything. Its more that the molecule is not outside of his authority. Eventually I became a Christian during an episode of Star Trek while reading a LifeMagazine article about "The Groovy Christians of Rye, New York." Canada ON - Waterloo. Just want you to know that Im keeping your son-in-law in my prayers. There is a prominent member in our church who is also in our study group. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Reformed theology has other tenets, which Calvin influenced, along with other theologians like Augustine (354-430) and Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531). (Okay, back into lurk..later, yall!). I understand that, and I certainly dont look down on you. The rule about not eating the fruit was just as much an opportunity for Adam/Eve to choose good as it was to choose evil. Arminianism: Because of the Fall, man has inherited a corrupted, depraved nature. The crazy cycle can lead to suicide or walking away from God entirely. One reason is because I have gone through periods where I questioned Gods goodness because of certain events in my life and in those of others. Because their first and most precious assumption is that truth is forever beyond any human agency. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. Prior to learning of the YRR thing, I actually tried to force my self to accept the thinking as presented by these men. CALVIN! And many if not most Protestant mainline denominations accept the idea of penal substitionary atonement, though I am aware not everyone accepts this belief. Calvinists are Christians and Calvinists and non-Calvinist Christians share a multitude of common ideas and beliefs. What is the positional difference of man before God between a little TOTAL depravity and total total depravity? He doesnt get rude or nasty about Calvinists in his video, he just disagrees with their views and says why, and explains what he does believe. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. Roger E. Olson (born 1952) is Professor of Theology, George W. Truett Theological Seminary, Baylor University, Waco, Texas, USA. If the answer sometimes doesnt work then weve got more work to do The same dynamic that caused Charles Darwin to say I am not a Darwinist and Karl Marx to say I am not a Marxist? A Adam Clarke Adam Harwood Adrian Rogers A W Tozer B Balthasar Hubmaier Ben Witherington III Brian Abasciano C Charles Finney Charles Swindoll Chuck Smith Clark Pinnock C S Lewis Craig Evans Craig Keener D Daniel Steele Daniel Whedon Daniel Whitby Dave Hunt David Allen David Arthur DeSilva David Bentley Hart David Pawson Dwight L Moody E F I dont see Calvinism as the issue, though I know some do. That is why we are doing our darndest to look at these issues and try to find a bridge. * Okay, end of sermon. 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship at the house of God, as we walked about among the worshippers. Im not trying to imply that you have never done the later. If Ive erred here, please forgive me for speaking out of turn . Many of us had grown up in non-Christian households and did not know many Christians. If you read it, you will most likely have a heart attack. But when our theories about how god works become more beloved to us than God himself, theyre just idols. The last point of Calvinism we'll be dealing with is the perseverance of the saints. The thread on JAs blog really threw me off kilter. We are not monolithic. We know that some of you disagree with us. If the plumb line for perfection is NO yeast, then of what relevance is the statement: The bread is not as yeast-y as it could be. Im not saying thats being done intentionally- that is why Im seeking to clarify what I (and others with similar beliefs) believe. Agree. I had no reason not to believe. He didnt say to have faith in the Reformation, or Tulip, or Keller, or your pastor/elder, husband, or Mary. If God had not give Adam and Eve a test and just stuck them there in the Garden with no choices, or had God forced them to be good, that itself is not an act of good, and God would have had two robots on his hands. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. He can- but there will be scars and pain that will not go away in this life. Off topic but growing up and even today my enduring friendships are with folks who had at least one immigrant parent.. one each from Greece, Italy and Albania. But it is not- God has power over every molecule and can prevent it from messing up his redemptive plan. But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions.. If this is so, its really astounding. Maybe only a part of it is wrong, maybe the whole thing. Also, not all Calvinists are believe in particular pre-destination that is, not all Calvinists believe God causes everything, there are degrees from some just view salvation as pre-destined, to others believing you are reading this because God ordained it from the beginning, so Pipers view of tornadoes is not universally agreed on by Calvinists. In fact, I've heard him preach stuff that would set Calvinists' hair (and beards) on fire. Old Pollyannasdie hard. A final troubling trend I believe plagues America's "Calvinist revival" is egotism. Makes available his super-ability where your ability comes to an end. Of course, this is an attempt of a finite mind to describe the infinite, so it cant be perfectly accurate. Kentucky. But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? I think that is biblical. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. I dont know that any of the venues get one closer to God than the others. The Baptist tradition is one of the most diverse in Protestant Christianity. This is also (imo) true for many, many people. If I had to pick one thing about them that signals danger to me, though, it would be what they dont act on, which is all those chickified wishy-washy decaffy gay things Jesus (and subsequently the apostles) said about love being The Main Thing. Ryrie, Rice, Wesley, WE Vine, Geisler, and RA Torrey come to mind as non-calvinists who I personally find thoughtful, sound theologians who happen to disagree with me on this very fine issue of theology. Thank you, thank you, for getting it right! @ Nick Bulbeck: It is the ideas that underlie what Calvinism discusses that are problematic for all humans. However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. Conceding, of course, that this was an English translation, not Latin or French. But I can tell you this, there are times in the past where I would have characterized the tone of TWW as anti-Calvinist. Put more simply, I view others as if I were an Arminian and myself as if I were a Calvinist. I have been given books and literature from I recently engaged the discussion on Denny Burks website regarding the PC(USA) rejecting the song In Christ Alone because of the line The wrath of God was satisfied. And I would especially like to thank Jeff S for demonstrating how to explain and defend in great charity Calvinism and why he holds to those beliefs. What you describe is nothing like what I believe nor anyone I know believes. Why does a house wife bring more glory to God than a female scientist who wins a Nobel prize for her work? I think many. (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell??). I always thought of it as the Good News of the death and Resurrection of Jesus which resulted in the forgiveness of sins for those of us who believe. This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world. To insist on it is to cling to an inadequate, incorrect understanding of God, IMO. The wonderful commentaries writ-ten by Adam Clarke, Charles Ellicott, and Daniel Whedon, for example, have not been published for years. Its like taking someone whos been caged and respecting that they might not feel comfortable in small rooms, or inside buildings at all. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. That they are the sole divine recipients of truth, again. Happy Holidays. In that thread on JAs site, even when I tried to pull out, it felt like I was getting pulled back in. Ive not asked anyone to agree with me. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. John Calvin, Paul Helm John Calvin W. Robert Godfrey Crossway is a not-for-profit Christian ministry that exists solely for the purpose of proclaiming the gospel through publishing gospel-centered, Bible-centered content. Those who fell outside the box and had to be pushed away He was the leading French Protestant reformer and the most important figure in the second generation of the Protestant Reformation. Jeff S (and B for that matter), you sound like a good and kind man and a thoughtful speaker. Just a few thoughts for you. I gotta second numos motion. John Piper truly had no idea why his tweet from Job 1 caused an uproar. The Reformed doctrine of salvation is commonly represented by the acrostic TULIP (also known as the five points of Calvinism ): T - total depravity. It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. This is what some people have heard their entire life. Purity of Ideology, Dee. Or if they reject it because they think it teaches that God loves to abuse his children. Gordon Fee 30. . By no means is this true, and Im willing to bet it never really has been. Thus, just when you think youve got them pinned with the logical plumb line, they slip deftly away with a declaration of noyou dont understand; I dont BELIEVE that. (Mark 12:28-34, ESV). None the less and in spite of his ignorance in all things spiritual, he came to trust the Savior in 1973. all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. Paul Ellingworth William G. MacDonald James Strauss Philip Towner John Wenham Gary Habermas Nigel Turner Max Turner Peter Cotterell (?) I think it is sad that the PC(USA) rejected the song because of a line that is part of their doctrinal heritage. I have read extensively within the Calvinist system by approved authors including Calvin, himself, Grudem, Sproul, Piper, etc. Thanks for the recommendation. Number 3 on the list is "use of the ESV Study Bible.". My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. @ Julie Anne: @ dee: Hey, my Lutheran background is a lot of things, but Calvinist it aint!
Probability Between Two Numbers Calculator,
Death Announcement In Church Bulletin,
Marlon Brando Sacheen Littlefeather,
Northwestern Rose Bowl 1996 Roster,
Starlite Lounge Pierogi Recipe,
Articles L