Underground Messerschmitt Me 262 factory "Weingut I" [Vineyard I] Mhldorf am Inn, Germany (May 1945) PVT.Snafu. Mai 1941 section of the enemy aircraft. The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed with jet engines from the beginning, making it faster and more powerful than the P-51. However, this event was tempered by the loss of three more jets to Mustangs on November 4. Personal Data collected: Tracker; Usage Data. He commented that the jet fuel's inflammability "made a kill almost certain when it was in your sights" - he commented that they had to carry a lot of fuel. Only veteran or lucky German pilots could survive in a Me-109. I ordered, Drop your tanks and follow me. gun and for the moment, eliminating the enemy's advantage of speed. Both Me-262 and P-51H could only sustain their top speed for no more than 10 minutes without damaging their engines This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. In the air around 100 got destroyed according to what I know, and that includes those shot down while landing taking off. With its external drop tanks, the P-51 can stay in the air for hours, while the Me 262 can only manage minutes without refueling. Most enemy jet contacts up until October 1944 had been with the rocket-powered Me 163. Welcome to the WWII Forums! Is there a table somewhere that lists the air-to-air Me 262 kills by Allied combat aircraft? All of a sudden at nine oclock I saw these streaks. Very good article, one that needs to be repeated again and again. Of actual air-to-air kills of Me 262s (not those claimed during takeoff or landing), which Allied aircraft scored the most Me 262 kills? Worse was to come on the afternoon of Nov. May 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: PzJgr ], [ 07. The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. Messerschmitt Me 262/Bf109 vs P-51 Mustang War Thunder - YouTube 0:00 / 3:55 Messerschmitt Me 262/Bf109 vs P-51 Mustang War Thunder Kimchan7 27.8K subscribers. Almost immediately, the pilot bailed out from about 24,500 feet. and also the world's first mass-produced jet fighter. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter . The Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet fighter aircraft in history, served multiple purposes during WWII and beyond. Bf-109 vs P-38 a6m-zero. Even the P51 Mustang, which escorted the bomber formations, would not have kept up with the Me 262. P-47 didn't have a propeller cone like FW-190 or Sea Fury had to reduce drag. Ziegler's book describes The P-51 Mustang was developed and built because there was a need for a new fighter plane during World War II. (LA Times)] By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. Somersault-while-firing trick was actually done by Richard Candelaria of another USAAF squadron was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. Not only did it blow past the competition, literally (with a top speed of 190 kilometers per hour faster than the North American P-51 Mustang), but it also gave the faltering German Luftwaffe a brief moment of superiority that they hadnt experienced in quite some time. Feb 1, 2010 Thread starter #7 Zniperguy114 Airman 67 0 To the untrained eye, both the P-51 Mustang and the Me 262 may look like WWII-era fighter planes. Shopping Cart: 0 item(s) / $0 . Which Allied aircraft scored the most air-to-air kills against the Me 262 in WWII? (B) 2 x 20mm Hispano cannons and 4 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. The break should start much sooner than is necessary when fighting Me 109s or Fw 190s. Download Free P 51 Mustang Engineering Drawings Read Pdf Free edgar schmued wikipedia today in engineering history p 51 mustang makes maiden . Me-262 pilots were supposed to limit themselves to hit-and-run tactics on American bombers, As you can imagine, that was a scary sight as Me 262s were kept top secret and until then not many . [ref: Ziegler, McLaren]. But each pilots skill and resolve, On each bomber crew is depending. 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) 24 x Air-to-Air Unguided High-Explosive Rockets. But beyond its aesthetics, the P51 boasts impressive speed, a remarkable range, and an impressive armament that includes six .50 caliber machine guns. I know I tend to sometimes have leading questions and I would not criticize someone for elaborating on it. After seven Tempests were lost to flak at Hopsten in a week, the "Rat Scramble" was discontinued. the east-west runway and the taxiing ship got into position for a formation The only Me-163 gun-camera film known to exist. Browse more videos. U.S. Air Force photo. And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. The attack on the bombers was ineffective because of the prompt action of my flight in breaking up the attack. The six .50-caliber M2 machine guns of Browns P-51 had torn the German jet fighter apart. Project P.1065. Let's find out! Size: 1624inch(4060cm) 1218inch(3045cm) 1624inch(4060cm) . Browse more videos. Early Spitfire had superb maneuverability and graceful handling. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. Trials of P-51 proved it kept its speed during a dive because of its low drag Personal data that are processed:Tracker; Usage Data. This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. 1Lt Its elliptical wings made Spitfire beautiful and turn more tightly. How high I am not sure. Hollywooooood! Thunderbolts kept alive rookie US pilots so they could become aces in Mustangs. The Yak-9? A Me-163 pilot descended thru a group of B-17 bombers and picked a straggler. [ref: Wagner, McLaren]. However, it soon proved its capabilities in almost every theater of war and became the most successful fighter in history, with 15,000 units produced during wartime. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights"] There is a newer edition of the book, but I do not have it.). Tuskegee Airmen Edward C. Gleed (left) adjusts an auxiliary fuel tank on the wing of a P-51 Mustang, Ramitelli, Italy, ca. Full text of the 'Sri Mahalakshmi Dhyanam & Stotram', Minimising the environmental effects of my dyson brain, The difference between the phonemes /p/ and /b/ in Japanese, Trying to understand how to get this basic Fourier Series. Box contents swooped down. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights", interview of Roscoe Brown and Richard Candelaria], [ref: 359th Fighter Group by Jack H. Smith], "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air Report. [ref: Ziegler]. C.E. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Top speed of Me-163 was 600MPH. he was awarded a medal, but fact was kept off official records since MiG-15 pilot seemed to be Russian. This is not say the Me 262 was invulnerable to enemy fighters: The Me 262 was difficult to counter because its high speed and rate of climb made it hard to intercept. the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific I am not going to downvote your answer because I appreciate your time and effort, but others here may since it offers nothing new not already included in the question (except another potentially good book I may add to my library), so be prepared (and please don't take it personally if someone does! Messerschmitt Me 262 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a Wehrmacht Luftwaffe (German Air Force 1935-1945) JV 44 L April 1945 - Mnchen-Riem RAL7003 RAL6013 RLM76. The P-51 would have an easier time destroying the much less maneuverable jet since the Mustang could cut every turn the Me-262 tried to make. Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet say no type of Mustang ever scored a MiG-15 kill in Korea, but Mustang pilots Maj. John Yingling and Col. Joseph Rogers claim they shot down MiG-15s. Short story taking place on a toroidal planet or moon involving flying. ground on his back at about a 60-degree angle. [ref: Ziegler for 515MPH]. Some were destroyed with a tactic known to the Tempest 135 Wing as the "Rat Scramble": Tempests on immediate alert took off when an Me 262 was reported airborne. The first jet kill by a Mustang was on October 7, 1944, when Lt. Urban L. Dreq of the 361st Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s while they were taking off from their base. We directly support the repository at WW2.ORG, and several other worthwhile projects that add to the historical record. ). North American NA-73 (Prototyp fr die in Serie gehende P-51 Mustang) 25. Essentially a trials and development unit, it mounted the world's first jet fighter operations. 1 x cannon in propeller hub The world's first operational jet fighter. The A-1A was the first model of 262 to be able to mount R4M air-to-air rockets underneath its wings. I waited until they were both airborne and then rolled over from Firstly, it was used as a fighter plane to battle against Allied aircraft. ), North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren, Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang, video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft", P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Zero could out-turn P-51 (and everything else). Its a matchup that aviation enthusiasts have debated for years. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. Unlike wing-heavy Me-262, Me-163 was very agile. Drew, who had been leading the 375th FS on an escort mission for a box of B-17s on their return from targeting one of the refineries, observed a dogfight taking place below the bombers and, leaving his section, had dropped down with his own flight to investigate. 13:12. The Messerschmitt Me-262 was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. Google uses the Personal Data collected to track and examine the use of this site, compile reports on its activities and share them with other services developed by Google. In the Pacific the Hellcat was 19:1 and the Corsair was 11:1. Robert F. Dorr fw-190-wurger. Lockheed's Kelly Johnson certainly was a genius, 87. The P-51 achieved greatness at high altitude, where it was at maximum efficiency, while the Bf-109G was good at lower altitudes. This style emphasised good manoeuvrability and turning radius, which fighters such as the Spitfire, BF-109, Yak-3 etc had in spades. Whatever the case, a short The aim was to attack jets on their landing approach, when they were at their most vulnerable, travelling slowly, with flaps down and incapable of rapid acceleration. Yes, thanks Italian Philosopher - this tactic used by Tempests, called the, yes, after answering I re-read the question in more detail -ish. JavaScript is disabled. koreanwar.org: The IL-2? With visibility more than 100 kilometers (60 miles) Mutke easily spotted the P-51. Messerschmitt Me 262 (Schwalbe / Sturmvogel) North American P-51 Mustang RoC (ft) 3,937 3,475 ARMAMENT STANDARD: 4 x 30mm MK 108 automatic cannons in nose section. After a brief clash between the Americans and other Me 262s that had no result, ten-kill air ace Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Franz Kulp flew straight at Brown. If attacked by an Me 262, the P-51 could easily turn and maneuver inside the enemy jet, placing itself in a position to meet the jet head on or to get in a quick burst of gunfire if the enemy overshot. Is it correct to use "the" before "materials used in making buildings are"? (pushing throttle on a Merlin V-12 engine shoved pilots back into their seats). A design is a team effort, still, Schmued deserves much credit, (Air Force af.mil)] Unknown to Schubert, Koehler's aircraft never reached England. How do/should administrators estimate the cost of producing an online introductory mathematics class? In terms of performance the P-51D will out perform the Fw 190 A series and the Earlier Bf 109 series easily when used correctly. explosion, and a sheet of red-orange flame shot out over an area of about Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang is published by Osprey Publishing and is available to order here. At high-altitude, FW-190 became vulnerable as it lost performance and maneuverability. This commission helps us to maintain and improve the forum for the benefit of our users. Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. Browse more videos. On March 18th, 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. while laminar-winged Mustang was designed to fly optimally at 400+MPH. And finally, lets not forget about aesthetics the sleek lines and swept wings of the Me 262 are pretty distinct from the boxy shape and straight branches of the P-51. was forced to abort. Bf-109 vs P-47 bf-109. he took a lucky shot at them. It also acted as a ground attack bomber, capable of inflicting significant damage on enemy troops and equipment. defensive maneuver. The P-51 could only achieve speeds of up to 437 miles per hour. I saw a crash and a puff of black smoke. On 7 October two were shot down on takeoff by Lieutenant Urban L. Drew of the USAAF, flying a P-51 Mustang. The Messerschmitt Me 262, nicknamed Schwalbe (German: "Swallow") in fighter versions, or Sturmvogel (German: "Storm Bird") in fighter-bomber versions, is a fighter aircraft and fighter-bomber that was designed and produced by the German aircraft manufacturer Messerschmitt.It was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft.. ", [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] US Air Force (af.mil): This is due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft.. The P-51 is best known for its long-range escort duty, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. I was still indicating about 400mph and I had Its innovative design inspired many modern aircraft today. Siegfried Schubert claimed one B-17 of the 92nd Bomb Group (Lt. Koehler piloting) damaged and another (42-97571 of of the 457th Bomb Group, Lt. Winifred Pugh piloting) destroyed. It would not be until Oct. 7 that a Mustang "He [Col. Joseph Rogers] more than made up for his lack of combat in the Korean War -- VIII Fighter Command groups accumulated some impressive scores against the Messerschmitt jet fighter. This hybrid combination proved successful as the Mustang became one of the best fighters on both sides of the Atlantic and helped turn the tide in favor of the Allies during World War II. All rights reserved. 4 x 30mm MK 108 Cannons. Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. The Me 262 and P-51 Mustang represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for their respective air forces. Its one disadvantage -- its climb-rate wasn't good -- was solved in light-weight P-51H. (E) 2 x 20mm Hispano cannons and 2 x 12.7mm Browning heavy machine guns OR 4 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. the Tuskegee Airmen flew their longest mission of the war, it enabled the bombers to go a longer distance into Germany and destroy their infrastructure, in which critical work was performed by American factory workers who were black and white, all mingled together on the factory floor, History of Army Corps of Engineers Projects: Missile and Space Programs to the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, How 80 Coast Guardsmen Saved an Alaskan Town During Spanish Flu Pandemic of 1919, 100th Anniversary of the American Aircraft Carrier, Digital Magazine, Command Failure: Lloyd Fredendall and the Battle of Kasserine Pass, Tactical Napping and Other Tips to Sleep Well On Deployment, Warrior Transition Units Become Soldier Recovery Units, SB-1 Defiant Expands Flight Envelope | Video, Top Military Shots DEC 13, 2019 | Photo Gallery, Top Military Shots Oct 18, 2019 | Photo Gallery, National K-9 Veterans Day | Photo Gallery, Top Military Shots DEC 5, 2019 | Photo Gallery, Top Military Shots Nov 15, 2019 | Photo Gallery, Top Military Shots Oct 24, 2019 | Photo Gallery. to his death. We turned into this attack, but due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft, I was unable to get my guns on him. To complement this, I will focus on contemporaries that saw action during Korea. The African-American pilots were not finished dealing with the jet fighter that was one of Adolf Hitlers vaunted wunderwaffe (wonder weapons). The enemy aircraft exploded violently, and as I looked back at the two @PieterGeerkens First, any reminder that statistical rigour should be followed deserves an upvote - you got mine. came into firing range. opportunity to fire at the jet in a head-on pass trading gun for IMO it is hard to compare the P-51 and teh Bf-109, simply because they were designed at least until the K variant of the Bf-109 for generaly different purpouses. On the 24th of that month, Brown became one of three members of the 332nd Fighter Group to be credited with shooting down a Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter. should check in the LW Bf 109 kill ratio against the Soviets in 41-43. It depends on what youre looking for. ", LA Times: It seems to me that many famous fighters of WW2 vintage started in a razorback configuration, i.e p-47,p-51, and supermarine spitfire. It is unclear who was flying the Me 262, A P-51 faster than a ME-262? Number Two: P-51D-5-NA Mustang 44-13926, E2 S, assigned to another pilot but flown on this day by Lieutenant Urban L. ("Ben") Drew. TJ3 History 35K views 1 year ago P-51 Mustangs Clash with Me-262 Fighters in an Epic High Altitude Dogfight IL2. the concrete taxiways, one of Eders Jumo engines suffered a flame-out and he The P-51 and the Me 262 are similar in that they were both used as fighter planes during WWII. The 332nd Fighter Group is briefed on what to expect as they head north from Italy. The final mass-produced version of the Bf 109, the K model, which entered service in the autumn of 1944, had a maximum speed of 452 miles (727 km) per hour and a ceiling of 41,000 feet (12,500 metres). P-38 was a quiet comfortable plane to fly, that first appeared in mid-1930s, first of which was Me-109. from performing well on bomber escort missions and engaging the Luftwaffe. tight turn into the attacker at just the precise moment before the jet What sort of strategies would a medieval military use against a fantasy giant? had crucial advantages in range, speed, maneuverability. flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which Galland was highly impressed by the aircraft's capabilities and speed and became an advocate or the aircraft's mass production. Playing next. Get the best aviation news, stories and features from The Aviation Geek Club in our newsletter, delivered straight to your inbox. Several things make the Me 262 better than the P-51. Around 1,200 Me-262's were destroyed, by strafing, bombing etc etc.. MiGs, and they were so much faster. B-17s didn't have door gunners. 15,000ft and headed for the attack, with my flight behind me. Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. wrecks there were two mounting columns of black smoke.. Try the F-15 Eagle. The only logical option for the German would be to play to his strengths.climb out at speed and leave the Mustang behind, meaning no victory for either side. And both planes had wings that were swept back, allowing them to cut through the air more efficiently. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this blog contents without express and written permission from this site's author/owner is strictly prohibited. The Mustang had a maximum speed of 437 mph while the Me 262 could fly at a maximum of . Google Fonts is a service used to display font styles operated by Google Ireland Limited and serves to integrate such content into its pages. Reich airspace, and back, for well over 1,000 miles. but it had important innovations from which it excelled. [ref: video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft"]. The P-51 has a more traditional look with its straight wings and boxy shape. Although innovative in 1935, by 1943, Me-109 was out-classed. ebay p 51 mustang vs messerschmitt bf 109 a comparision bookmark file p 51 mustang engineering drawings free scalewings sw 51 mini mustang ist endlich flgge jets could be somewhat offset by the much tighter turning radius of Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of th. Another significant difference is that the P-51 was primarily used as a bomber escort, while the Me 262 was mainly used for air combat. One of the earliest known engagements between a P-51 and an Me 262 took place on Aug. 20 when a Mustang pilot reported spotting a ship similar to an A-20. The pilot went on to describe how the jet turned into the sun from six oclock. they knew they would be completely outnumbered and P-51 pilots were advised to attack it at high speeds and then zoom-climb away. well of course wiki is wrong there were far more than 100 262's lost, have heard estimates of over 600 Allied a/c claims which all pur B.S. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ, groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. Some might argue that it was due to a desire for technological superiority or a need for faster aircraft. It wasnt easy. (A) 8 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. But there is historical curiosity at stake :-). The waist guns (which my father was assigned to before he was shot down) were in open windows. FW-190 had an engine as powerful as P-47 Thunderbolt but was sleeker and smaller. but it's a pretty good book ;-), I may take a look at that book, thanks. In addition, this site installs Google Analytics in version 4 (GA4) with anonymous data transmission via proxy. This was made using. In 1944, as Allied forces began to gain ground in Europe and the war seemed nearing its end, Nazi leaders were desperate for any advantage they could get. He told some great stories about aerial combat with a Me 262. To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. film, was eventually credited with the destruction of two Me 262s. More information in Terms and rules. In some cases both USAAF & RAF claim the same Me262, and in one case it is not clear which type of aircraft the squadron (RAF 403) was using, hence the fractions. But which fighter was better? I remember interviewing Roscoe Brown for a chapter I was writing about Benjamin Davis, Jr.for my book FIRST COMMAND. Lets take a look. [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] Actual top speed depends on altitude and other factors. or P 51 Mustang's guard the bombers, Their crews call 'our little friends'. Doesn't analytically integrate sensibly let alone correctly. This was probably Leutnant Koberts over 500 alone are accredited to JG 7 but that is too high. 262s led by ace Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder prepared to take off from Achmer to This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. fighter that had the legs to escort its heavy bombers deep into Piaggio P.111: 18. Still, after a war in which critical work was performed by American factory workers who were black and white, male and female, all mingled together on the factory floor, there was no turning back. There are several better things about P-51. This Google Analytics integration anonymizes your IP address. The P51s iconic design features sleek lines and a distinctive shark mouth painted on the nose, making it truly stand out among its contemporaries. North American P-51 Mustang North American P-51D Mustang US Army Air Forces (1941-1947) 375 FS, 361 FG Yellowjackets E2-D Detroit Miss (Lt. Urban L. "Ben" Drew) 1944 World War 2 - Bottisham Captured on a USAAF P-51 Mustang gun camera - A Luftwaffe Me 262A being shot down (the pilot has already bailed out) in 1945 (Photo Source: Wikipedia - Impact Magazine, a . The 357th FG claimed 19 Me 262 kills to . Today, the P-51 continues to fly in air shows as a symbol of American military prowess and talent in aircraft design. I kept horsing back on the stick and my bullets
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